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piranhathere are several systems of romanisation for japanese; only 3 of which really matter these days. since i got my first "instruction" in it via manga and anime titles, my set is kinda fubared, because the people who romanise titles don't all use one system, and worse, many mix the systems.
i understand why they mix. the best-known romanisation for english speakers is hepburn (not after audrey or katherine; after a guy who published his dictionary in the late 19th century). at some point later that got revised, and the revised system is what pretty much all dictionaries and most modern instruction devised for english speakers is written in.
even revised hepburn unfortunately uses macrons to indicate syllabic n (n̄) and long vowels (ū, ō, ī). not a problem for printing books, but most people don't even know how to type these. and so hepburn gets modified -- but not just one way. some people write n', uu, oo, ii, some write n, uh, oh, ih, some write ou for ō, some i- for ī... it's a mess.
but it doesn't stop there, oh no! the japanese themselves weren't happy with hepburn; they wanted a system that more clearly indicates japanese sounds for japanese speakers. so they came up with their own: nihonshiki (日本式ローマ字), which has, of course, since also been revised as kunreishiki (訓令式ローマ字). it uses circumflexes for long vowels; a bit easier to type for europeans. but it also uses ti (chi in hepburn), syo (sho), tu (tsu), etc -- not exactly intuitive for english speakers, ergo it's not surprising that it hasn't really caught on over here. the japanese are sort of accepting that in international communications -- but not by adopting hepburn for themselves, no, by making certain explicitly allowed exceptions (such as "passport japanese").
for example, you can see 東京 (とうきょう) romanised like this:
Tokyo -- in most international references; this isn't any proper romanisation, and IMO sucks because it results in nobody pronouncing it properly (though i guess it beats Cologne for Köln.) US manga publishers also use this "method" for names. i can see why -- because english pronunciation is so fuxx0red, but i'm griping about it anyway.
Tōkyō -- original and revised hepburn, seen in dictionaries and english study materials
Tookyoo -- modified revised hepburn
Tôkyô -- nihonshiki and kunreishiki
Tohkyoh -- passport japanese, and germans use this (which is WHY it is passport japanese i bet)
Toukyou -- wa-puro, which corresponds well with kana spelling [1]
i've been considering adopting kunreishiki just to stick with the way the japanese do things (cause if i ever go over there, that's what i'll need to use). but for translating manga, that's not a good idea. at this point i am doing what everybody else seems to be doing -- rolling my own, which is an unholy mix of modified, revised hepburn, kunreishiki, and kana spelling, *sigh*.
don't even get me started on word separation or capitalisation in romanised japanese. or on reverse translation of katakana. i have opinions!
[1] since starting to type into apple's kotoeri (IME = input method editor), i can see that my unholy mix works well with wa-puro (ワープロローマ字). wa-puro stands for "word processor" and is the romanisation most people use to type japanese into computers these days (including the japanese, who are leaving their kana keyboards behind). it's quite forgiving in that it needs no macrons or circumflexes, and it accepts nihonshiki, kunreishiki, and most modified hepburn. adhering to kana spelling rules helps me with remembering vocab as well.
i understand why they mix. the best-known romanisation for english speakers is hepburn (not after audrey or katherine; after a guy who published his dictionary in the late 19th century). at some point later that got revised, and the revised system is what pretty much all dictionaries and most modern instruction devised for english speakers is written in.
even revised hepburn unfortunately uses macrons to indicate syllabic n (n̄) and long vowels (ū, ō, ī). not a problem for printing books, but most people don't even know how to type these. and so hepburn gets modified -- but not just one way. some people write n', uu, oo, ii, some write n, uh, oh, ih, some write ou for ō, some i- for ī... it's a mess.
but it doesn't stop there, oh no! the japanese themselves weren't happy with hepburn; they wanted a system that more clearly indicates japanese sounds for japanese speakers. so they came up with their own: nihonshiki (日本式ローマ字), which has, of course, since also been revised as kunreishiki (訓令式ローマ字). it uses circumflexes for long vowels; a bit easier to type for europeans. but it also uses ti (chi in hepburn), syo (sho), tu (tsu), etc -- not exactly intuitive for english speakers, ergo it's not surprising that it hasn't really caught on over here. the japanese are sort of accepting that in international communications -- but not by adopting hepburn for themselves, no, by making certain explicitly allowed exceptions (such as "passport japanese").
for example, you can see 東京 (とうきょう) romanised like this:
Tokyo -- in most international references; this isn't any proper romanisation, and IMO sucks because it results in nobody pronouncing it properly (though i guess it beats Cologne for Köln.) US manga publishers also use this "method" for names. i can see why -- because english pronunciation is so fuxx0red, but i'm griping about it anyway.
Tōkyō -- original and revised hepburn, seen in dictionaries and english study materials
Tookyoo -- modified revised hepburn
Tôkyô -- nihonshiki and kunreishiki
Tohkyoh -- passport japanese, and germans use this (which is WHY it is passport japanese i bet)
Toukyou -- wa-puro, which corresponds well with kana spelling [1]
i've been considering adopting kunreishiki just to stick with the way the japanese do things (cause if i ever go over there, that's what i'll need to use). but for translating manga, that's not a good idea. at this point i am doing what everybody else seems to be doing -- rolling my own, which is an unholy mix of modified, revised hepburn, kunreishiki, and kana spelling, *sigh*.
don't even get me started on word separation or capitalisation in romanised japanese. or on reverse translation of katakana. i have opinions!
[1] since starting to type into apple's kotoeri (IME = input method editor), i can see that my unholy mix works well with wa-puro (ワープロローマ字). wa-puro stands for "word processor" and is the romanisation most people use to type japanese into computers these days (including the japanese, who are leaving their kana keyboards behind). it's quite forgiving in that it needs no macrons or circumflexes, and it accepts nihonshiki, kunreishiki, and most modified hepburn. adhering to kana spelling rules helps me with remembering vocab as well.
no subject
on 2011-01-28 21:48 (UTC)i tried to learn from her books, but her method and the way i learn don't mesh well. she believes that people should stick to listening/speaking for a long time. i see her point, but i learn much better if i start writing right away, especially in a language with a non-latin "alphabet"; i learn pronunciation tied to writing. ergo i am not really willing to stick with romanisation for as long as she does it; i'm mostly done with it now that i know the kana well, and it hinders/distracts me more than it helps me. she also dumps too much extra stuff on top: she use n̄ for the syllabic n (which feels WRONG to me because that n isn't a long sound like the vowels represented with macrons), she uses extra accents to indicate pitch (which i am dubious about), she adds an additional set of morae starting with ḡ for a nasal sound (which is totally non-japanese and throws the kana tables out of whack, and (like pitch) is not universal but a specialized dialect thing that's all too easy to get wrong). and -- a bit surprising for a series that prides itself on teaching the spoken language -- the practice dialogue is stiff and stilted, and the vocabulary is quite limited.
maybe worst of all, these are the most deadly boring textbooks i've seen since the 50's -- and i actually LIKE grammar! so yeah; too bad, because i can see she was a exceptional scholar. i'll keep the books around as a grammar reference, because they're outstanding in that regard.