some failures suck extra hard

[piranha]

my attempts at trying to help people understand each other in a recent LJ drama just showed themselves futile. damn. and it's such a waste, too. i mean, not for me; it doesn't really touch me in any personal way. it would have just been so much better if people had managed to work things out. this is the sort of thing that makes me ever more hopeless about people working out anything that really matters, such as peace between palestinians and israelis, *sigh*.

it's probably good i never tried to be a diplomat. i don't have what it takes, whatever that is.

on the upside, i can now spend a lot more time on clearing my email inbox! and dare i imagine -- maybe play a video game or two.

Comments

[dubhain.livejournal.com]

Condolences.

[liv]

I think I know which drama you're referring to; I re-stumbled upon it by accident and have been admiring your sensible and pacifying contributions. Obviously, you wanted results rather than admiration from random passers by, but still. Once people are bringing lawyers to an internet flame war I doubt there's much to be achieved by a relative outsider simply making reasonable comments.

When it's on a political / national scale, I have some amount of faith in grass roots, person-to-person stuff. Do you know these people? Knowing there's people doing that sort of work gives me at least a little hope in the face of a really grim situation.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

As it turns out, nobody's bringing lawyers. Each side thought the other side was, and was prepared to defend, but nobody acutally is. It was all a misunderstanding of how LJ Abuse handles things.

[king-tirian.livejournal.com]

"In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the
value of the stakes at issue -- that is why academic politics are so
bitter." - Wallace Sayre (who would have used online flamewars as his example had he lived so long)

It's good of you to try to be a peacemaker, even if you cannot see the benefit to your work. Heck, even if there is never literal peace in the Middle East, perhaps what we have is better than what we would have if we didn't try.

So, whatcha playing?

[crazed-lynn.livejournal.com]

it's probably good i never tried to be a diplomat. i don't have what it takes, whatever that is.

Not smarmy enough then?

You are a talented peacemaker, but if people don't want to make peace, there isn't a lot a peacemaker can do.

[redbird]

You are a brave fishy.

I posted a couple of times, very early, in the journal-commenting-on-the-main-participants'-journals, then realized I was going to accomplish nothing, and threw a Somebody Else's Problem field around it.

I would have liked to see it work out, but I know my limits and my priorities.

[sinboy.livejournal.com]

Well, most diplomats are inveted by countries to conduct negotiations. From what I've read, you were not requested as a negotiator by both sides.

(a) The failure can't really be yours then

(b) Sneaking up on someone and trying to fix their problems without getting asked to is ... something. Not bad, but somehow nonconsensual and tricky. I think I'd feel minorly annoyed if you did that to me.

[serenejournal.livejournal.com]

But wouldn't you say that posting a problem in public and seeking input is pretty close to asking for people to help you fix it?

[sinboy.livejournal.com]

On side did ask for input. I'm not so sure about the other side. IME, a negotiator, mediator or a diplomat needs a more formal invitation ny both sides to be effective. Just saying "hey folks, what should I do?" isn't a request for mediation.

[serenejournal.livejournal.com]

Sure, but in this context, I don't know that I'd be upset if someone came in and tried to ameliorate some of the difficulty. Just saying.

[sinboy.livejournal.com]

Not really upset, but mildly annoyed. IMO, a mediator ought to be requested or at least ought to notify both parties.

[cheshyre]

Sorry if I've caused you any distress.

For the record, I'd welcome a mediator if the other side were open to it. I actually privately emailed elke_tanzer asking if she'd be willing to act as an intermediary, since she's struck me as one of the more intelligent and rational people in Gin's circle of advisors. She refused, and said [Ginmar] "doesn't want intermediaries getting involved." (I don't know where that was said, but I'll take elke's word on this)
Since I think much of the problem has been one of misunderstanding, I can certainly understand that sentiment, but I think it's a shame because I think that our communication styles have gotten in the way when we've tried to email each other directly.

At any rate, I do thank you for the help you've provided and the insights into the abuse process.

Re: some failures suck extra hard

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

you didn't cause me any distress at all. the distress came mostly from the people who seemed to be in a feeding frenzy to see drama, more drama, and were quite busy helping to fan the flames, spreading false information, and outright lying.

i didn't view myself as a mediator or negotiator (which i agree needs to be requested by all sides in a conflict). more as an outsider trying to provide a somewhat objective voice, and a little better insight into the LJ abuse process. but last i saw there were still oodles of false assumptions about the latter flying around.

i wasn't alone in trying to provide a somewhat objective voice either, which was good to see. just that none of the other people trying were listened to either; we were all marked as suspicious.

the reason this sucks especially hard isn't so much this particular instance (though i do feel bad for all three of you and wish this hadn't happened), but because of what this says to me about conflict in general. it's tempting to write one side off as unreasonable, but i think that would be too easy, and i am resisting it.

i am still too damn naive, after all these years. *wry grin*.

Re: some failures suck extra hard

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

i don't view it as my failure. i get upset at other people's failures all the time. :)

i don't think i did b, and i agree with you that mediators/negotiators need to be requested, or at least formally accepted by the parties in a conflict. see my reply to cheshyre for how i saw myself.

[anisoptera.livejournal.com]

For what it's worth I enjoyed reading what posts I saw of yours in the LJ Drama. (I was trying to stay away but would poke my head in from time to time.) I learned a lot from reading your comments.

I think the results of an intervention often are not seen/realized until much later. You may actually have done a lot more good than the results show at the moment.

[ckd]

Yeah, I tried to de-escalate things a bit too, and (apparently for my trouble) got unceremoniously bounced from one party's locked community. Sigh.

Re: some failures suck extra hard

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

*nod*. yeah, i saw, and i thought well of you for trying.

same here re. the bouncing. might've bounced the entire friends list. feels like junior high, except i never was in junior high. :)

[firecat]

well, it was worth a try and I'm glad you did what you did. fwiw.

[beckyzoole.livejournal.com]

I think -- I hope -- I started out diplomatically, but I lost it dealing with yonmei. The originator of the drama is a ranter, and I knew she was a ranter when I friended her, so her rant did not offend me. I think she has over-reacted to criticism, and it's frustrating for me to see her acting in what seems to be a self-destructive fit of junior-high rage... but I would never be rude to her. This Scottish High Horse, however, has lied, pretended to be who she is not, and also personally offended me. Grrrrr. For my own sanity, I need to stop following the drama.