distracted

[piranha]

two nights ago the network went dead on me just when i was gonna post the daily picture. last night i was preoccupied with reading about the ferretty boob grabbage, so i missed the deadline.

and guess what? tonight i was _still_ reading about that. it's been a while since an internet firestorm has absorbed me this much. it's fascinating how many, many intelligent, insightful voices there are to speak out against the stupid; i'm following one to the next to the next. i don't know where i'll find the time, but i've added a number of them to my flist because i want to read more by these erudite people. maybe that'll get me writing more substantive posts again as well. one can hope.

so, no pictures today either because i don't just want to grab one at random, but tomorrow i'll post several to make up for that.

Comments

[liv]

The boob thing is strangely fascinating. It seems to have started some really important discussions that might otherwise not happen. At the same time, I'm finding some parts of it depressing. I mean, really, really depressing, to the level of being an obstacle to getting through the day. I need to work out why I'm having that reaction, because I've never been abused and I'm generally quite confident about my body and sexuality.

If you haven't seen her comments already, I do recommend trinityva; she's coming down on the pro side of the argument, but with a rather original take on why she thinks the project was a good idea.

trinityva etc

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

yeah, i find some aspects of it very seriously depressing. and while i have been abused (more by women than men), and have a long history of male and female attempts to subjugate me and make me feel like shit using sexual remarks (like most people who were born women), i am pretty well-adjusted about it; i've dealt with it, and i don't trigger. nor am i a prude. but that post depressed me more every time i read it.

but it also depressed me that the beautiful experience those people had got tainted, and that there were some comments that attempted to take agency completely away from those women who enjoyed themselves in particular, so i understand part of trinityva's complaint. i would have MUCH rather heard from them than from theferrett, and not defensively. i went looking for entries in their own journals but didn't find anything at the time.

though trinityva seems mostly blind to the fact that theferrett brought this solidly down on himself (and on the magical experience the participants had) by the skeevy male het entitled arsehole way he wrote about it, and by trying to make it into a movement, instead of LETTING THE WOMEN SPEAK about their amazing experience. if this was supposed to be such a noble experiment for the women, WTF is _he_ doing being its spokesperson? i mean, other than to cement his internet notoriety. add big ego to white het male entitlement; what a winning combination.

even the way trinityva phrases part of what upsets her is questionable: "the thoughtful attempt to allow women to more carefully and easily articulate their boundaries than they get to in a real world that endlessly pressures them".

HELLO! in the real world we now have laws to protect women from unwanted gropage and more so, from unwanted verbal harassment -- without wearing any buttons. starting to push buttons around at cons is a step back. nothing per se stands in the way of a women saying to a person she fancies that she'd like to go out with them, or cuddle up, or have sex -- mature adults at cons seem to be quite adept at working this out because man -- lots of consensual cuddling and sex happens at cons. adults negotiate this sort of thing every day, without buttons that announce their availability status to all comers. of course there are pressures, but this sort of juvenile experiment doesn't do anything to lower them. instead it plays into the hands of those louts who _don't_ behave like mature adults, and who don't grok that groping is not ok -- monkey see, monkey do.

"thoughtful attempt"? some guys stand around with their female friends and talk about how they didn't get to touch enough boobies in high school, and then one of their friends says "you can touch mine". OMG. this could be so classically "we must nurture our menfolk". the idea didn't come spontaneously from the women, it came in reaction to male complaints about this cruel world in which female bodies are not as easily accessible as they want. "thoughtful"? when they approached the women in the princess dress, who "obviously put her assets on display"? (ghod, i want to knee the guy for writing that because obviously his package is asking for it.)

now, i am not saying the women are broken, and that there's something wrong with them enjoying having their breasts touched. as i said before, i am quite sure it was one of those magical moments at first, and everything was just happy and giggly. even though the guys started it, that doesn't mean that the reaction was just a pity offering -- maybe it really felt like one of those times when one can connect with somebody else.

but IMO theferrett ruined that. all by himself.

Re: trinityva etc

[hmms-sio.livejournal.com]

In nonwestern countries, cultures, it is pretty normal for women to touch each other. I remember a story from a Dutch woman with a Turkish MIL. They met after their marriage and at a certain time they were in the kitchen together and the MIL touched her breasts. It wasn't strange, it was normal behaviour. Just for the dutch woman it was awkward for a moment.

Re: trinityva etc

[trinityva.livejournal.com]

wow, I just googled myself and found this.

let me just say that I get your point, but my own experience with unwanted attention has been, I think, different from yours.

in my experience, unwanted attention comes in places and times where there are assumed to be no rules. it's unfortunately a default under patriarchy (or whatever you want to call it) that women's bodies are somehow free/visible/etc in this weird way that gives others entitlement.

i have only ever felt safe in places like this, places where people have come out and said, flat out, straight up, "yes, we might want this, but we also recognize your right to say no. which is it: yes or no." "no." "okay, go on." "thanks."

i have never been in a space where no didn't have to be articulated. i like your idea that the default should be no. but the default isn't no and won't soon be no, no matter how we say "you suck for reminding us the default isn't no."

and THAT, at least in my experience, is why i feel a hell of a lot more threatened walking down a street than at a con like this one was. because if they were telling the truth, and i think they were, they were vowing to respect no.

that's a rare luxury in our world. it's something that needs to be further encouraged.

now, was this the best way to encourage it? probably not.

but saying i'm weird for feeling safe in spaces where people put up big old signs that say "we understand 'no'," I still do not get at all.

trinityva etc part II

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

and anyway, that kind of magic is not repeatable. i've experienced it, and it was great in the moment, and then it was gone. it left some pixie dust behind for a while, and good memories, but maybe part of why it is so magical is that it cannot be repeated.

i don't think it'd be truly empowering these days if my friends whined to me about how they didn't get enough nookie in high school or since, and then i let them touch me to make them feel better. ok, once upon a time i gave some pity fucks, and it was a little empowering, because i could HELP. but i grew out of that. i am no longer in the business of providing my body for geek healing experiences. i am not ashamed of it; it was a kind thing, it was nice and pleasant. and i don't think that pinning a button on myself would be a step up from how i negotiate touch access now; it's rather a lot more advanced (having just listened to you describe the beginnings of your r'ship with your beau, you're rather a lot more advanced than that as well). i think the whole button idea is a couple steps backwards.

(ah, i get to use the icon i made to blow off steam.)

lucky, punk? icon

[aquaeri.livejournal.com]

About the icon: I appreciate it helped you, but it's actually vaguely distressing for me, because despite the text, I'm bracing myself for more of his self-justification. Feel free to continue using it; I hope eventually the effect will wear off.

[ckd]

As I commented over on trinityva's LJ, I think a bunch of the problem is the conflating of "what happened at the con" and "theferrett's post about the Project".

I think what happened at the con, as described by people involved who I trust and who definitely know their boundaries, really was a great thing for them.

I also think that theferrett's post made it sound incredibly skeevy, tried to extend it far past its area of applicability, and set off a whole lot of alarms for a whole lot of people.

[daev.livejournal.com]

For me it was reminiscent of what I found frustrating at feminist conferences I'd attended. Someone would want to argue that X is a good thing, superior to Y. And they'd write a paper and present it. But the way their talk would marshal support for X was by linking it to the holy political struggle and claiming that it is fundamentally "transgressive" against the patriarchy, and complementarily that Y (or just "not X") was patriarchal and oppressive because it implicitly suppressed its wonderfully radical complement. And so every discussion was a crusade, all about throwing the majority of listeners into the pit of sexism unless they got aboard the speaker's bandwagon. This is the worst way to talk about anything, whether it's rap music, kinderwhore dresses, romantic "pet names," or anything else one might reasonably disagree about yet still consider oneself a feminist. I don't know why it seems more endemic to feminism than other social movements (except for Communism which does the same thing and then executes dissenters), since feminism is just as valid and important as civil rights for blacks, or gay marriage.

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

i am mildly confused, :) which part was reminiscent of past feminist conferences you attended?

[lizw.livejournal.com]

I've found some new journals to read as a result of the trainwreck, too, and like you, I was impressed at the number of people who spoke up. Good that something constructive came of it in that way, at least.

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

it's really awesome -- usually internet firestorms create more heat than light, but this one is definitely different. so much good thought out there.

[hmms-sio.livejournal.com]

I hope you found this:
http://theferrett.livejournal.com/1087686.html?thread=54853830#t54853830

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

oh yeah. i've read all his comments, and that was just the tip of the iceberg. i've been thinking of making a link post, but am probably gonna be too lazy for that.