*boggle*

[piranha]

from the worldcon programme:

Panel 2: Fri 8/25 5:30 PM, 60-90 minutes.
Title: WHY IS SCIENCE FICTION SO WHITE?
Participants: Elizabeth Bear(M)
James Frenkel
Ian McDonald
Fiona Patton
Alan Rodgers
[Precis: An exploration of minorities in Science Fiction, both the writers and their characters.]

if this were a regular con, i wouldn't say anything. but the worldcon concom couldn't find a single person of colour for this panel? is science fiction that white?

Comments

[ianmcdonald.livejournal.com]

yup.

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

not that i have any complaint about the people who are on the panel, mind.

just that i was wondering whether the programming chair didn't implode from the irony. :)

[tigertoy.livejournal.com]

I've never studied it, but my experience looking around me at the cons I've been at is, yeah, science fiction is THAT white. It would suprise me if the pool of panelists had more than one or two black folks on it, those people might not have wanted to be the token black on this panel, and recruiting someone who wasn't already in the panel pool, just for this panel, could easily generate more crap than anyone would want to risk bringing up (I know I wouldn't want to start a debate on the appropriateness of an affirmative action program in a concom meeting). I don't mean to imply that I think there's a lot of overt prejudice against blacks in SMOFdom, but I think there is a lot of overt prejudice against affirmative action. There's more than enough fannish politics without stirring up hot-button mundane political issues, so I don't think you can be surprised that no one would push the issue. I'll leave it up to you how disappointed you should feel about that.

[redbird]

Or, tokenism aside, the non-white people who'd voluntered for programming may have said no because they've done that panel five or ten times and want to talk about something new and interesting, where they might hear something they don't already know.

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

yeah, that wouldn't surprise me at all.

which still comes out to the same point though: science fiction is that white.

which makes that kind of panel particularly interesting to me. :) one of the two cons i went to -- VCON -- at least had some asian presence. and i don't see anything inherent in fandom that would discriminate against non-whites. but i am just an outsider, and an insider view would interest me.

[redbird]

I remember nnaloh commenting, this past Wiscon, that Wiscon wasn't as white as when she'd started attending. Still very much majority-white, but less so than it had been, and I think she said less so than other cons she attends. Progress, but in very small steps. This is at a con that has started making specific efforts to be welcoming to people who aren't white and middle-class.

What I don't know is why fandom is as white as it is. I suspect some of it is self-reinforcing: a lot of people who are involved in fandom (as distinct from simply reading or watching sf or fantasy) got there because friends told us "hey, here's this cool activity." Since so many other social circles are de facto segregated, if an activity is mostly white, there's some tendency for it to remain so. A related aspect is an Alice Walker quote that roadnotes is fond of: never be the only one, except in your own living room. If a black (or Asian, or other visibly non-white) person walks into a con, and sees a sea of white faces, s/he's less likely to come back than if she sees a more varied group. I also suspect there are still a lot of white people who haven't figured out that they should neither ignore that new-comer because of her (or his) color, nor make a big fuss about "hey, wow, you're black!"

[akirlu.livejournal.com]

I have a black friend in LA fandom who claims that the lack of "Hey, wow, you're black," is one of the difficulties to fandom of attracting and keeping more people of color. His belief/experience is that people of color come into a vastly-white-majority group expecting to be noticed for color and don't entirely know what to make of not being noticed for color. I don't know if that's generational or idiosynchratic to Ken, tho. I also wonder if fandom's majority population of socially awkward, aspergic-like, introverts doesn't play a role in how the interactions go. (That is, I wonder if people of color get ignored any more than anybody else.)

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

i'm not sure whether they could get ignored even more than anybody else, because wow, does one ever get ignored if one doesn't already know somebody. i am not actually complaining about it, because i don't think anyone else should be in charge of me making human connections, but since i suck at it, if everybody else sucks at it too, it ain't gonna happen. i enjoyed VCON because the paramour was with me, otherwise it would have been ... lonely. and i normally hardly ever feel lonely. maybe if one were of a different race to boot, this would feel more like a rejection? i knew this time it wasn't because i am fat. :)

i am sure it would be completely different if i went to, say, wiscon or minicon, where i would know scads of people from the net. not that i'd know which of them are of colour, but i am sure it wouldn't make one bit of difference. with the exception of people on LJ who have pictures up, and those who occasionally write about their experiences with race, i generally don't know who on the net is of what race. i've always considered that a bonus, alongside with people not knowing one's gender, age, looks. but then i am also agnostic about it; ie. i do not presume everybody on the is white and male, frex; my template is a nice cardboard colour and not anatomically correct. i think "wow, you're black" would be ... obnoxious. but i don't even feel it, so i am unlikely to bring it up.

[akirlu.livejournal.com]

Yes, over the years I find that I like the conventions best what have a population of attendees whom I've met in print media first. Often the first meatspace meetings tend to go much better because there are all these conversational threads to pick up from. Conventions that don't have some pool of people like that usually feel lonely to me, too, and I'm a good deal less bad at striking up conversations with strangers than some fans -- to the point where kate_schaefer mocks me when I say that I'm shy.

If you find yourself in the mood to try again, sometime, there's always Potlatch, which is close-ish to you about half the time. For that matter, I've been grumbling in my beard about doing a yay-we-don't-have-to-run-Potlatch-for-TWO-YEARS relaxacon in Vancouver next spring. If I pull it together, I'll try to let you know.

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

yeah, i am that kind of shy too -- if i know people well i can chat it up like a storm. all my net.gatherings have gone really well because, like you said, we have all those many threads between us already and we can pick up anything and run with it. but take the familiarity away, and i become an observer only. i envy the paramour zir ability to strike up conversations with total strangers, but i really can't do it like zie does it. i make slow connections, too slow for face-to-face these days. i can speak up in panels though; that's just like a seminar in university.

if you'd do it in vancouver, i'd come. i no longer cross the US border these days, unless it's really, really, really important.

i'd still love to go to wiscon some day. *wistful sigh*.

[papersky.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, do that!

In Canada!

Let me know too.

First or second weekend in March would be best -- that's Spring in Vancouver, right? Or I could do the weekend attached to March 23rd, or Easter, or April 27th. (These are all times Zorinth has random time off school. We could do other times, but those would be the best.)

In pining for fandom, but I really don't want to go into the US more than I need to.

[nolly.livejournal.com]

My experience as a new fan not that many years ago was that my first few conventions were pretty lonely -- I knew a few people from local fannish groups, but they were mostly busy working the con. When I got acquainted with more fans outside of conventions, they introduced me to their friends at conventions, and now it's better.

The late caldesilk was largely responsible for helping me meet people early on; I had met him, sort of, at my first convention, Loscon in 1999. agt talked me into going to the 2000 Worldcon, which was my third convention. I was completely lost and overwhelmed, but I sort of recognized Michael, and we went to the same History of Worldcon "docent tour" with Jack Chalker. (Which, rather than an actual tour of the history exhibit, was sitting around a table listening to Jack tell stories.) Michael was kind enough to be friendly to me later in the con, and later became something of a mentor as I got more involved in conrunning.

I miss him.

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

never be the only one, except in your own living room.

*wry grin*. i am always the only one. and my experience at the two cons i've been to has been that i will get totally ignored except by the people who already know me from the net (and who don't take an instant dislike to me in person).

has anyone ever looked at whether SFF groups on the net are also predominantly white? there's somewhat less self-reinforcement on the net because nobody knows, usually.

damn, i really want to go to this panel. :)

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

if i were to bring it up, it wouldn't be along the lines of "affirmative action", but, you know, wanting some actual experience with some of the issues represented on the panel. that's not tokenism nor is it affirmative action.

but of course i've never tried that. but being as i have very short patience with libertarian fuckwittism, i'm almost itching to now.

[tigertoy.livejournal.com]

I don't mean to say you'd see it as affirmative action. I suspect that some people would cast it that way.

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

oh, i got that.

those are the very people with whom i'm itching to have an argument. :)

[wcg.livejournal.com]

Steven Barnes (http://darkush.blogspot.com/) comes immediately to mind, though I don't know if he's going to WorldCon. He does go to some cons, but perhaps not this one.

Of course even if he is going, the point is well made above that he's probably been asked to sit on panels like this a dozen or more times, and he might just be tired of it.

As for the whiteness of SF fandom, I'll allow that Balticon, a major con in a city that's over 60% black, draws only a smattering of black people. I'd guess maybe 30 or so out of the 600+ who attend each year. I'd guess there's at least an equal number of south asian (India, Pakistan, etc...) and east Asian (Chinese, Korean, Japanese) people in attendance, so taken all together it's something like 100 non-white people among the regulars.

[leiacat.livejournal.com]

I am curious what proportion of people (of whatever color) who go to Balticon are Baltimorean.

[wcg.livejournal.com]

Good question. I suppose we'd have to ask the ConCom for the statistics. We certainly get a lot of people coming in from DC and NY.

[akirlu.livejournal.com]

Well, given who's in charge of programming, I'm also happy to believe that Science Fiction as experienced by Craig Miller is that white. I mean, I guess it's quite possible that Mary Ann Mohanraj and Steve Barnes and Chip Delany and Tannarive Due and Nalo Hopkinson and Frank Wu (hey, let's let the artists have a spot) and Cecilia Tan and Ted Chiang and Nisi Shawl and Y.H. Lee and any number of SF fans I could name and the undoubtedly many I don't know were all not attending Worldcon or not interested. But I find it equally plausible that Craig simply didn't think to ask any of them. But then, I am an evil, cynical, snarky bitsch and I know it.

[ianmcdonald.livejournal.com]

you should have seen the problem I had even getting anypanels from the abovementioned gentleman --seems everyone non-US is minority, regardless of skin colour.

[akirlu.livejournal.com]

Yes, well, it's an LA fandom thing, in part. I've seen it from the inside and truth to tell it's dreadfully insular and parochial. Very few LA fans end up looking much outside of Los Angeles for much of anything. Add to that the fact that Craig is, in my observation, very far from his best when interacting in print/electronic media and Bob's your Uncle. Anyway, you've got a Scots name, that's an ethnic minority, surely?

[yhlee.livejournal.com]

Hello, here by way of james_nicoll--I didn't know about this panel until, well, today, and I'm not attending WorldCon (blew my travel budget--WisCon in part), so asking me wouldn't have done any good. I will keep an eye out for panel reports, however!

[king-tirian.livejournal.com]

I can't quite divine the meaning of "WHY IS SCIENCE FICTION SO WHITE?" Does it mean "Why would the core of science fiction resonate with those who come from European-based cultural backgrounds?" or "What do those Icks need in order to see the light about our wonderful medium?" or "How dare we enjoy something that other people don't enjoy?" Meh, it'd probably be for the best if the panelists were part of a HiveMind because otherwise they'd spend the whole hour talking about what they should be talking about.

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

yeah, i really would like to go to this panel, but i'd be even more interested if it was filled with, well, people of colour. i am not even sure how i'd approach "why are there so few SF writers of colour", and "why are there so few characters of colour in SF" otherwise.

i'd suspect bear is a strong enough moderator to set the theme properly to not waste the time talking about what direction to take; she certainly seems to be a take-charge person in her LJ. i'm hoping the two panelists on my flist, and possibly people attending it will talk about it afterwards.

[matociquala.livejournal.com]

I thrive on fear.

(Still white over here.)

Oi, yeah, I think I'm going to encourage hecklers. I can't figure out what else to do with this.

[king-tirian.livejournal.com]

It's the Kobayashi Maru of convention panels, that's for sure. My solution would be to fake a cellphone call, leave quickly, bar the doors, and not look back lest God turn me into a pillar of salt. But you're a writer, so you might come up with a better solution.

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

I thrive on fear.

your own or others? *grin*.

that sounds like you didn't actually pick this panel on your own because you have definite ideas about it -- so what, they picked you sorta at random for the panel? (i have little knowledge of how such things work.)

[matociquala.livejournal.com]

No, I volunteered for it. I'm just a little surprised by the demographics.

[desert-dragon42.livejournal.com]

I might just have to attend this panel and see if I am the only brown person there.

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

yes, do! you can be Speaker for the Browns from the floor! (such an exciting position to be in, i'm sure.)

[desert-dragon42.livejournal.com]

And one that would be New! and Different!
*sigh*

Darn, I can't remember the short story collection of sf/f written by folks of color about folks of color (The bookshelves are way on the other side of the house). Any of those writers would have been great on that panel.

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

yeah, i imagine. there was a time when i seemed to be "speaker for europeans" (not at cons), and it became Not Fun very quickly.

can i ask whether you've got a lot of "wow, you're black!" from people in fandom? or whether people mostly don't seem to notice, or at least not comment on? and how that makes you feel (if you want to talk about it)? i've noticed that in the part of alt.poly i see nobody comments on it. how about at alt.polycons?

if you find that short story collection, i'd be interested in the title.

[desert-dragon42.livejournal.com]

Only from other blacks in fandom. It's kinda interesting when we find each other. Mostly though, people don't notice and a few people try really hard not to notice. At the alt.polycons that I've attended....not been an issue though I did speak a little bit about how I feel being the only brown face in the crowd and how nifty it is to see other non-white faces. Mostly, I don't notice I am the only or one of a few except sometimes I'll be standing there in a group looking around...and it hits me full on. I feel alien for a brief moment. Then I am engaged with the group again and the feeling passes.

All in all, I prefer it if my obvious difference is acknowledged as just a thing rather than pointedly ignored. That makes me feel uncomfortable. It is not like I haven't noticed that I am black.

I could probably ramble about this for days.

The collection is called: Dark Matter A Century of Speculative Fiction From The African Diaspora edited by Sheree R Thomas. I've had the pleasure of meeting two of the authors who contributed to the collection.

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

sorry for the delay in getting back to this -- my life was overrun by a fair. :)

It is not like I haven't noticed that I am black.

*heh*. yeah. and i do notice whether somebody is black, which goes into the "rough visual characteristics identifying a person" along with a vague size thingie, hair and eye colour, hair length, beardedness, etc.

though now i wonder how i should acknowledge it as a normal sorta thing. the problem is that if i view something that way, i don't usually acknowledge it. and i've never yet felt like i had anything to say about anyone's skin colour -- unless they had a bad sunburn. "hi, dragonnette; great to meet you -- and i see you're black! excellent." is just not what one should say, i imagine. :)

so, what should one say?

and please, feel free to ramble for as long as you want! individual experiences always interest me a lot.

(thanks for the rec; i'll add the collection to my acquisition list.)

[desert-dragon42.livejournal.com]

I will have to come back to this. Worldcon is calling and we are heading out today.

One thing that bugs me is when someone is trying to find and that person is the only x in the area and everyone tries to describe that person while avoiding using skin color as a descriptor. *sheesh* The other day at work, someone was trying to find one of the people in the other room. Yes, she is tall and has dark hair and sits in the front row of cubes but she is also the only black woman in that dept. I would have used is the tall black woman in the right front cube.

Really at most fannish gatherings, saying "look for the average height blonde fat chick with glasses" won't work. But "look for the average height blonde fat black chick with glasses" would let you find me really easily. It is just another descriptor and noticing doesn't mean you are racist or any other ist. [yes, I tossed in a bit of size acceptance in there as well...fat is also just a descriptor and doesn't imply anything about my attractiveness, eating habits or cleanliness]

But, I should be packing. I'll see what I notice at Worldcon and post about it when I get back.

Btw, I enjoyed the pics and commentary about the fair! I loved the state fair back home. The one here is more about the carnival ride part than the crafts and animals and oversized produce.

[papersky.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure the first time I met you in person I noted that you were black, but it's pretty much like noticing people are tall or fat or gorgeous, it would seem like a kind of gauche thing to blurt out.

I imagine myself saying, after having known you online for some time and running into you at a worldcon: "dragonette! You're black! I had no idea! That's so cool! It looks so great on you! I hope it doesn't give you too many lingering historical socio-economic disadvantages!" and it comes out sounding like Jon Cleese as Prince Charles asking "How long have you been a peasant?"

Thinking about this, it seems odd to mention it because mentioning it seems as if I assume people are white as a default... as an unmarked state, because people who aren't tend to talk about their experiences with being a minority colour, online. I know when kate_nepveu posted photos of herself in a new dress there were startled responses from people who had assumed she was white. I've talked about this with browngirl a bit, about feeling the need to make a declaration of color.

(I once had the reverse experience. I knew redbird and roadnotes were "sisters", and that they'd been mistaken for each other. I'd met roadnotes and knew that she was black. When I met redbird might be the only time anyone anywhere was amazed to discover that someone was white.)

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

it seems odd to mention it because mentioning it seems as if I assume people are white as a default

yeah, and i don't, i just sorta don't imagine anything when i don't know -- which isn't has hard as that might seem, because i don't picture people as people. if i meet somebody, their race, their gender, their looks at the time, the way they move get attached to the "gestalt" that's in my mind, which is a 4D thingie containing everything i know about them. i am definitely not "colour-blind", but it's much like gender for me -- it's not usually a significant marker in how i remember somebody (if somebody is racist, that's a lot more significant).

livejournal is really different from the usenet groups i frequented in that it often provides race and gender for other people -- if they talk about their experiences with those, or just by means of their user pictures. which is why i now imagine rysmiel to be a waifish white girl with long, straight, dark hair parted in the middle. :) it's amusing since i've met rysmiel, but that image i see so often, in my mind is standing in front of the image i got then.

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

oh yeah, i have no problem using race/colour and size as well when i am pointing out somebody to another person who asked. i am probably more careful with size, because while i am fine using the term "fat" it's still in transition, and lots of people hear it as an insult (not so much in fannish contexts, i imagine, which is a goodness).

hope you'll enjoy worldcon!

[mmcirvin.livejournal.com]

Samuel Delany's nonfiction essay in that collection was pretty relevant to the present discussion, if I recall correctly.

[matociquala.livejournal.com]

Please do come.

[nolly.livejournal.com]

At a smaller convention (not in LA), I was recruited from the audience to join a panel on "Are Two Genders Enough?". All the scheduled panelists were male.