piranha: red origami crane (Default)
renaissance poisson ([personal profile] piranha) wrote2007-08-23 07:40 am
Entry tags:

problems with the existing paradigms, unsorted


i think the journal/blog paradigm is fine for daily life reportage, but it stinks for carrying on conversations. it feels mostly like i am alone, speaking to the winds. and while that's fine for part of how i am, it's completely useless for interacting with other people. i don't actually need to speak to the winds; i am happy doing it in my own head. writing here has always been for others -- though not as a performance, but just to keep in touch.

a blog's paradigm is primarily insular. other people might come across you, but aside from those who already know you it's all very random, and most don't stay. you might get a drive-by comment, but they're hard to keep track of for the visitors, and conversations rarely persist past a couple days. on LJ you can at least keep track of some of your comments, if only a small percentage, and the subscription mechanism is better than nothing, but messy.

now, one can make a blog into something more like a community, but it takes either a very energetic person, or a small team, and it helps if you are famous in your circles (cf. making light). and still, the time-driven content presentation results in "out of sight, out of mind". also, most blogs have flat commenting. don't even get me started. LJ's thread handling is cumbersome, but at least it exists. i hate flat comments with a passion. also, no killfiles in blogs.

i just got an email in response to a post i made on usenet in 1998. somebody searched google groups for a specific subject. LJ's search capabilities suck. and ljseek only covers unrestricted public posts. i used to grump at dejanews, now i think google groups is a mint because of its easy search across a long-term archive. i could always search usenet on my own server. search is good.

usenet. so much fun in large part because the spaces it creates are open. everyone can come in and write. without "community membership" hurdles to pass first (for unmoderated groups, which most of my faves have been). decentralized; you can pull down what you want and only what you want, anywhere, anytime, and read it in your favourite newsreader. or you can read it through the web. no central server that can go down and deprive you of your communications medium. but the topic space has always restrained me, and there is no way to officially create a no-topic space on usenet. i am not much for staying on topic (the peanut gallery guffaws). i am interested in so many things. and while i can subscribe to groups on all those things on usenet, i never keep up with them because it's too cumbersome. and i don't develop community with groups where i rarely post. and usenet is still a text-only medium -- which is great when i want to yadda on, but these days i also like to look at pictures. cat macros, you know? :) but usenet is also ephemeral, if not as much as LJ (and much less so since deja). which is possibly good for some free-wheeling conversation; i remember long arguments when deja came around about how it would affect people posting what they really thought.

web forums. all the problems of usenet with fewer positives, and little extra to make up for it. centralized -- if the site goes down, there goes your forum. too much clicky-clicky to see any actual text; with sup-par sequencing abilities. but easier presentation of graphics, and these days graphics matter to me. a bit more static than blogs, but still time-driven. decent search capabilities, though it depends on the software.

email lists have uses for announcements and short-term coordination of people. i am subscribed to a couple of yahoo groups (which i use solely through email) for announcements, but beyond that i don't want any truck with lists anymore.

[identity profile] tigertoy.livejournal.com 2007-08-24 02:37 am (UTC)(link)
I think LJ's threaded comments on a single page are the best on-line venue for not-quite-realtime conversation I've ever used, for immediately active topics. The problem is that once the original post is more than a day or two old it's fallen off of people's friends page and they stop following the thread. The new notification features help, but they're far from what I want. To use them myself, I have to go way out of my way to turn on notification and then turn off email notification -- I do *not* want to add LJ comments to my email stream. The message center works well for me. But what I really want is to be able to beef up my friends page with the functionality of PLATO's notesfile sequencer (if any post on my friends page has a response I haven't read, it gets a distinctive highlight/icon) and the functionality of a killfile, so I can hit one button on the latest dumb-ass quiz and when I refresh my friends page I don't see that post (even if it gets new responses). If LJ provided this (and everyone used it), conversations would be able to stay active for weeks without everyone involved having to specificially decide the thread was worth marking.

It needs a sequencer. Or a sequencor. Stupid brain.

[identity profile] huashan.livejournal.com 2007-08-24 06:27 pm (UTC)(link)
From the very first day I started using lj/blogs/etc I've said what they really need is a sequencer like plato. With Google Reader (reader.google.com), that's exactly what I get for my RSS feeds that I read. But for conversations, it's still a multi step process.

ext_481: origami crane (Default)

more on threading

[identity profile] pir-anha.livejournal.com 2007-08-25 02:31 am (UTC)(link)
I think LJ's threaded comments on a single page are the best on-line venue for not-quite-realtime conversation I've ever used, for immediately active topics.

usenet and a good newsreader (such as gnus) are several steps beyond LJ's mechanism, and way faster as well (there's always too much clicky-clicky for me with web-based apps, and they never let me configure anything different, like "unfold all comments @ 100 comments to a page"). i know i can't get the access speed of a newsreader on the web (because the content isn't local), but i would just like the functionality. heck, just SOME of the essential functionality.

it's really a crying shame that apps written 25+ years ago are STILL more powerful than anything new. they're not even reinventing the bloody wheel, they've made square wheels instead.

fuck. i wish i were still capable of programming something complex.

Re: more on threading

[identity profile] tigertoy.livejournal.com 2007-08-25 03:09 pm (UTC)(link)
I was never a very serious news geek; when I did read it, I realized that it would easily suck up all the time in the universe, so I kind of avoided it, and didn't seek to learn about different readers. I never used a reader that would display multiple comments to a page.